Making It Sing: Music & Editing
An Interview with TTRPG composer BE/HOLD and a treatise on editing by Will Jobst
Our game of DIE is almost over. Our story will come to an end on Friday, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t more about this season to share. Next week the cast will be joined by Kieron Gillen to discuss this season of My First Dungeon–our favorite bits, the times we cried, and all the times we forgot the rules but had fun anyways.
The Four Ways We Can Look at Games
An exclusive preview of the Jobst Style Guide
First, a little introduction.
I’m Will Jobst, a tabletop game designer, publisher, and editor, working at Good Luck Press. I’ve edited dozens of roleplaying games and books, and I’m in the process of collecting the lessons I’ve learned, distilling my process and thoughts into a forthcoming zine called the Jobst Style Guide: a guide for writers, editors, and publishers of tabletop games. It’s still in progress, but I hope to have it out by the fall.
It’s a little like a cookbook. We’ll take individual concepts, break them down, and show several methods for how to attack them. Things like structure, terms, play examples, and more!
Here’s an excerpt from that zine, in which we talk about the four ways to look at roleplaying game writing, which underpin the ideas in this guide.
Four Perspectives
Game text is multi-use. The best we can do as writers is anticipate the situations in which our words are approached, but we can’t be perfect. Different elements of a game require different uses, and some pieces will be held to much greater scrutiny than others.
For our purposes, we can outline four different perspectives of approaching game text:
the reader
the player
the editor
the layout artist
The reader spends time with the text with no pressure. They read the text in the sequence you’ve set it in, or they skip around to whatever they want. Readers are all different and come with different sets of expectations. As a game writer, it’s your work to set and manage those expectations, focusing on appeal, clarity, and getting them to mentally schedule their next game night.
The player is using the text, right now. There’s pressure, perhaps a group hanging on their words, between a “hang on…” and “it’s right here…”. We’ve been here. There’s no guarantee that the player has read every word, only that they’re referencing it now. A player looks for landmarks and anchors, using a situation or question to prompt their journey into your text.
The editor has a toolbox. With the editor perspective, we’ll take the tools out and test them, how to approach the major concepts covered here, so you can collaborate with a writer to make sure the text is successful, something you’re both proud of.
The layout artist is dividing up the text and making a manuscript into something to be printed. They are an atomizer, looking at chapters, sections, and paragraphs. When necessary, we’ll check in with the layout artist perspective when it might make their job easier. It’s also a modern reality that, when showing off your game to a front-facing camera, someone will show the most tantalizing pages of your game, cracking the spine for the closeup.
Thanks for reading! If you want to stay tuned into what Good Luck Press is up to, and the progress of the Jobst Style Guide, you can subscribe to our newsletter for updates right here: https://subscribepage.io/jobststyleguide.
BE/HOLD: An Introduction
The DIE OST composer details how he brought the Paragons to life
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Brian: I feel like this is a question you will get a lot, but it’s an easy first question. What's the story behind the name BE/HOLD?
BE/HOLD: It is strictly a D&D reference–specifically for the Beholder. I wanted a way to make electronic music under a name that people who don't know about D&D or like fantasy stuff would still think is cool. And “behold” is just like, I don’t know, it’s a good word. It’s epic sounding. But I also wanted it to be very rooted in Dungeons & Dragons and fantasy because that's a huge passion of mine. And I added the slash just because there was already an electronic artist called Behold as one word. And so I thought it would sound a little bit more esoteric to be like BE slash HOLD.
Esoteric punctuation really evokes TTRPGs for whatever reason.
For whatever reason it just feels nerdy, you know?
When we first started talking about you coming on to do music it was just to do a theme song. Then I got the theme song and was like, “This is awesome!” So it quickly evolved into also doing character themes. And I’m pretty sure the only guidance I gave you was that the vibes we were going for were kind of like ‘80s synth. Like, what if this show was like an action-adventure half-hour serial set in the 1980’s? How did we get from my very sparse description to this awesome original soundtrack?
I primarily gravitate toward a genre that is called synth wave. Synth wave is how you would likely describe the soundtrack to Stranger Things and Outrun, if you’ve ever heard of that video game. It’s taking all of the things that make ‘80s movies, soundtracks and music and just reducing it down and almost making it cartoonishly ‘80s. And that's something I really gravitate towards and I love to make music that sounds that way.
But I also love fantasy soundtracks in general. And the more epic the feeling, the better. And so when you were saying you were looking for something ‘80s-feeling, that was all you had to say. I was sold on it.
I feel like a lot of the stuff that I wrote was just what I’m interested in writing because I’m so naturally inspired by those sounds. The through line for me was really how you responded when I sent the theme. At first, I was not sold on doing a metal, prog rock guitar solo thing throughout. But as soon as I sent that and you were into it, it sort of guided me towards sounds like the band King Crimson or like these other ‘80s prog bands, like Rush. Sort of like if Rush or King Crimson made metal synth music, if that makes sense. But I was super inspired by the idea of doing an ‘80s action serial. Like if they made a Dungeons & Dragons TV series into a dark, live-action thing.
I can kind of see the opening credit montage of everyone getting an epic move and then turn to cheese at the camera. And what I always love about sounds of the ‘80s especially is that it was a time in movies and television that we couldn’t quite visually do what we wanted. So everything is a little bit more oblique. You only see the shark in Jaws a little bit, you know what I mean? Today, with the visual effects, you see everything you want to see. But when you don't have access to everything in the visual spectrum, the audio makes up for it. It creates more of a world. And I think it was just a very particular moment in time that really hits something just a little bit different. I don’t quite know what it is.
Yeah. The ‘80s are sort of the earliest time when we start having real electronic music. It’s really a genre that was created because of technology. There were no electronic instruments that were really available to consumers until the ‘80s with the invention of the famous drum machines and analog synthesizers. And I think what happened is, because you had all these people that were finally able to buy a synthesizer and a drum machine for the first time on the consumer market, you got a huge influx of both synth music, but also an interest in synth music because it was becoming more common outside of massive recording studios.
And I totally agree. There was something about the way they used sound at that time that is just intensely interesting and evocative in a way that I think modern stuff is just, like, different.
I’m pretty sure Jayamal's theme was the first one you sent me after the main theme. Which kind of makes sense, it feels the most hardcore ‘80s.
I definitely started with Jay’s theme. Mostly because the Neo, to me, is just a character from Blade Runner that they implemented in a fantasy world. And I think that’s so rad.
After that one you can feel the themes start to play with each other. How do you think they started influencing each other as we went along through this process?
I was using Jayamal’s theme as a guide rail for as synth-y as I could go for the whole soundtrack. From there, it was less figuring out how the songs could be similar and more figuring out how they could be different and trying to experiment with genre and trying to figure out ways that I could put a unique spin on each genre for each person.
So like Kelly’s theme obviously is the most different of all of them. I think there are zero synthesizers on that theme which is wild. All the sounds are super organic and it’s all acoustic instruments. It’s a complete tonal shift from like the main theme or Enoch’s theme, which is very metal, pirate-y feeling.
Kelly’s theme in particular was one where I think I wrote it like, three or four times before I ever sent it to you. I wrote maybe three or four different things and I was like, “Wow, all of these are fucking ass.” And then I wrote that one thing and I was like, “Damn, this is sick.”
I gave you a pretty tough brief with that one I wanted it to be kind of surfer vibe. Chill. And I wanted to be acoustic. When I got it, I was like, this is really, really cool. I really dig this. But my first thought was, I don’t know if this is gonna work. This is exactly what I asked for, but I don't think it’s gonna work. But then I just laid it into a certain part and pressed play just to hear what it sounded like. And it was perfect.
Yeah. Every time I was listening to the episodes I was like, oh, man, here comes like the Trust Knight. Is it gonna fit next to the Enoch theme or is it gonna fit next to Anna’s theme? Going from a punk song to an acoustic song feels weird, but every time it still felt really good despite the fact it was totally different, genre-wise.
In episode two–when everyone has their “magic-girl transformation” into their paragons–I do have everyone’s themes right next to each other and when you put them side by side you think it’s going to be weird, but it totally plays.
I think the thing that played to my advantage was Kelly’s theme is the only time where there’s acoustic guitar and electric guitar and strings and drums. But every other theme had either drums, strings, or electric guitar. So having those three elements that can tie through, I think, sort of saved me overall. I think if I was missing any of those one elements, it wouldn't fit together–either in Kelly’s theme or in the other themes as well.
I think it’s a good time to touch on Dani’s theme because I gave you a pretty tough brief for him. I wanted him to have parts of everyone else’s songs in his theme because his whole character is putting his friends on pedestals and stealing from their stories. He’s kind of a patchwork individual.
That note in particular, I think is what sparked that theme to come out. After that discussion I came into the studio and I was like, OK, what parts can I pull from each theme and either repurpose them in the same way and just make it a clear sample. How can I really mangle the sounds and make them really interesting texturally that still add to the song.
I pulled out a bunch of parts and fucked around and I hated it so much. But then I came back the next day and I–you can probably relate to this– I think I have the tendency to, like, quit before it’s time to actually quit. I’ll think something is trash and throw it away too early. So I came back the next day with fresh ears and I was like, oh, man, this part is really interesting.
So there’s that intro part of the song…
The whoosh that pans from left to right?
Exactly, yeah. So that part is the acoustic guitar from the Kelly theme. It’s very heavily gated and edited and it just plays in a rhythmic part throughout the song and sort of sounds industrial. And then there’s the main melody at the beginning, and that’s pulled from Jay’s theme. And then obviously I have the “Yeah!” from the Anna theme because that was so rad. I pulled the whistle out of the Enoch theme because that was definitely the most evocative part of that song. And then I have a bunch of stuff that I pulled from Ned’s theme that I have no idea what it is. I think it’s like a piece of audio that I time stretched a bunch and then cut up a bunch to make weird synth pads out of them. And then you rip a quick guitar solo over that and Bob’s your uncle.
I loved holding on to that theme until the very end of episode five.
Oh, I can’t wait to listen to it in episode five to hear what it sounds like.
That was a beautiful moment for me because every now and then you’ll just put a new piece of music in the timeline and it just fits perfectly. The puzzle piece slides right in, you don’t have to force it at all.
People wouldn’t get this from the music that I wrote, but I’m totally not a guitar solo person. Like, I’m not in the guitar world. There are people that are really skilled at guitar and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I’m not one of those people. I can play chords and I can play some melodic stuff and I’ve played guitar on a number of records, but I am not like a capital G guitarist. I played more guitar solos on this soundtrack than I’ve ever played in my life. I think at least 50% of the songs have guitar solos on them.
I mean, what says ‘80s action more than a guitar solo?
Every time I would be finishing up writing a song and I’d be like, well, it seems like it’s guitar solo time. It felt like putting, like, MSG in a dish, you know?
It’s the flavor maker.
Exactly. That’s exactly what it was.
So I know you’re a fan of the game, but you’ve also read the comics, right?
I have read all the comics, yeah.
How much did the comics inform the music?
I would say pretty hugely. Specifically I’m just a huge fan of fantasy novels. And I think that while DIE the comic book is definitely about TTRPGs in general, I also think it’s a love letter to dark fantasy as a genre–specifically grim dark fantasy as a genre. Because it shows how much a person’s moral character can vary and how a lot of us live in this, like, weird gray area where there may be a right thing to do, but in most cases, regular people might not always do the “right thing” or the “heroic thing.” That darker tone really was inspiring to me when writing this music. Most of the music is in a minor key and I tried to move towards darker, brooding sounding songs. I wanted it to be epic but not in the Marvel, polished way.
This is the first podcast you’ve had your music featured in, yes?
Yep. First podcast I’ve ever had my music featured in.
How does it feel to hear your music in the context of a larger story rather than just as its own thing?
It’s crazy. I’ve been writing music for a long time and it is really hard to get anyone to give a shit about the art you create. And I think anyone who’s ever made any piece of art can relate to that. It is so hard to get people to give a shit–which is fine, we all live in our own bubble and that’s totally chill. It is so wild to write a piece of music that is used to enhance another piece of art.
It’s wild to write a piece of music and see that music used to help realize that grand vision of another artist. But then furthermore, to have the art that I created and the art that you guys created go on to have other people that none of us have ever met before give a shit about it.
It feels amazing that we made something and someone else cares about it. I don’t think people outside of artistic communities understand how uncommon that is and it feels incredible to have that response and we’re not screaming into an empty void.
It’s incredible to open up the DIE discord server at 7am ET the day an episode publishes and see a bunch of people who have already listened to it and loved it.
Right?! It’s a really crazy thing. And it’s not like I need my ego fed all the time, but it is nice to have that positive response to stuff. And then, like I was saying before, all that music is coming out on a weekly basis on Spotify and Apple Music and all that kind of stuff. And that’s even getting a response outside of the people who have ever listened to the podcast.
Scoring this show has sort of been the impetus–is impetus the right word?–for a larger electronic thing that I never expected to really do. It’s always been a pipe dream of mine to put something like this together and then sort of to have all of these stars aligned for me has been surreal.
The last thing I wanted to ask, and this is for myself a little bit, but also for others who might see how successful this collaboration was and will want to hire BE/HOLD or to collaborate with a musician for something they’re working on. What do you think are the most helpful things that a client could say to you to get their vision across? What’s the information you’re looking for?
So first of all, if anyone reads this and they’re like, I want to make a podcast and have someone score it, I would love for you to reach out to me. But also if you have a friend that writes music and is at all interested in your podcast, you should work with your friends. I’m confident that everyone knows at least one person who has the interest in doing this. And they should totally go for it because it’s such a blast to work with people that I’m homies with.
But to answer your question, the best piece of information you gave me was a genre or a song that you liked. Not because I wanted to copy that song, but having some mutual piece of information that we can like point to on a map as a North Star for this specific song is so helpful. Beyond that, if you could provide soundtracks for games or movies that you like or artists where you want to emulate that style.
Even just having a genre gives a composer boundaries for what it is you’re looking for. And obviously with any musical project, there’s gonna be iteration and creativity within that genre, but having that as a starting place and putting boundaries on a specific project is ultra helpful.
And then the other thing that I’m always an advocate for is deadlines and clear expectations. I think the clearer the expectations you have, the better. Having clear expectations for what needs to happen and when it needs to happen makes everything in every kind of relationship really smooth. If everyone knows the demo or the rough cut for the song has to be done by July 1st then that’s a day on the calendar that everyone can have and can work towards.
And if dates have to change, they have to change, you know? It’s not like we’re making a ton of money and like, and there’s like investors on the line, right? But having those sort of goalposts to go off of I think is really beneficial for everybody involved.
Yeah. When you leave too many things open ended–too many questions unanswered–it puts a weird pressure on the person that you’re talking to. So if you don’t give a deadline, then they now I have to ask about it. You’re putting tension on that person when you could just alleviate that by giving them as much information as possible. That’s a thing I’ve been trying to be more conscious of, just answering all the questions this person will have. Then they’re fully informed and they can make a decision whether they want to participate or not. It’s only positive feelings. It’s not like I haven’t been given what I need and now I have a certain amount of tension that I have to deal with.
Yeah. I would say first of all, whatever you’re doing is working because I feel like I knew everything that needed to happen. Like the dates changed as things happened, but that was clearly communicated. It was very easy to make sure that the work was done by the day it had to be done by, you know? I felt very in the know. So, thank you and great job. But I completely agree, there’s nothing more frustrating than being left in the dark on projects. Like you said, if there are questions that are unanswered, that tension is sort of the fear of the unknown.
Any kind of mismatch of expectations is the easiest way to create tension, any kind of tension, within any partnership, you know, romantic, professional, personal friendship…
100% When we first talked about this project, I remember us discussing what the order of operations were, right? If we get a theme, awesome. If you can do a theme and character themes, that’s also sweet. And then you said something that was really important to me, you said, “but it’s an all or nothing thing.” If you can make a theme for all the characters, then that’s great. But if you can’t make a theme for all the characters, I’m not sure that we can get them all to fit. And that was like an expectation that you set on me and that was super helpful.
It was super helpful to be like, you can do all the work or you should do none of it. No hard feelings. That’s just what’s needed for the project. There’s gonna be a million other hurdles. So alleviating at least that hurdle is huge.
Upcoming Schedule:
My First Dungeon Presents: DIE
5/19 - Episode 6 - FINALE
5/26 - Cast Reunion ft. Kieron Gillen
6/2 - New Season Announcement!!
We are releasing a new track from the OST by BE/HOLD every Tuesday. Check out the first six tracks out now and follow BE/HOLD on Spotify so you don’t miss a new release.